Talking about prostitutes…REALLY???

talking about important things

by Kenneth Justice


By Kenneth Justice

~ I was sitting at a café recently sipping my coffee when an older gentleman who I’d talked with a number of times in the past sat down at my table. As we we’re catching up on each other’s lives three friends of his ended up sitting down with us also.  At some point in the conversation a rather attractive young woman walked into the café and these older gentlemen all took notice…  before I realized what was happening the conversation had evolved (perhaps devolved) into these four gray-haired retired men talking about all their experiences as young men and having sex with prostitutes.

Okay, let me get it out of the way that I’m not a prude in anyway….but as a guy who is more than half of these men’s age I began feeling a bit uncomfortable listening to them talk about the cute (very young) woman at the café and then begin telling their stories about sex with prostitutes….I even said as much, “uh, guys….really? This girl is young enough to be your great-granddaughter!” To which one of the guys said, “Hey you’re never too old to fantasize!”

Listen, I’m not trying to make it out that I have the cleanest mouth or that I never say things that are uncouth…..and perhaps I’m living in La La-Land; but I hope that as I get older I mature away from my juvenile-male-thoughts. Is that too much to ask of myself?

Isn’t that what is supposed to happen? We grow up, we mature….and the dumb things we think and say as twenty and thirty-something’s we gradually move away from? Am I wrong to hope that when I’m eighty years old (if I’m blessed to live that long) I’m no longer ogling an 18 year old young woman that walks into a café?

I definitely don’t want to make it seem like I’m some holy roller….I’m probably just as bad as anyone else when it comes to dirty jokes and saying things I probably shouldn’t be saying.  But I figure that as I get older many of the ‘bad habits’ I have regarding my language will slowly fade away as I become more mature. Not that I’m saying I ever want to lose my sense of humor…..but that I simply hope to eventually grow up one day.

Unfortunately, it seems as though our culture doesn’t really value wisdom and knowledge. Instead of men and women becoming famous for their great works of literature and wise sayings….it seems as though we tend to focus more on people who are known for lesser things;

—-) Kim Kardashian and Paris Hilton are famous for their sex tapes

—-) Hugh Hefner is famous for being a senior that sleeps with young women

—-) Howard Stern is the most wealthy radio personality in America and he’s not known for his intellect; but rather his dirty sense of humor

The quickest way for someone to gain fame in Western Culture is to do something that is taboo. Are you an aspiring author and want to get a book published? Then write about your year of working as a stripper and sex-worker; author Diablo Cody’s little sex memoir ended up leading her to a career as a successful screen writer.

I’m sure if I thought about it long enough I could come up with a few exceptions to the rule but when television reality stars are able to write trivial books about nothing and yet score high on the New York Times bestseller list….I think it’s an indication of what our culture truly values.

Over the past decade there have even been Christian churches who have gotten into the swing of using sensationalism to try and gain notoriety; some churches create ‘Hell Houses’ during the Halloween season which are extremely sick and twisted ‘haunted houses’ designed to scare the living s**t out of people and tell them they are ‘headed to hell’. The ‘Hell Houses’ got the public’s attention and numerous documentary crews and local news shows did stories on them.

Thus, instead of these churches becoming ‘famous’ by their service to the poor and needy….they used sensationalism as an avenue to get people to notice them.

One of the downsides of my little blog is that it doesn’t give readers an entire picture of who I am; I leave out the curse words that too often flow from my tongue and I tend to not write about the thousands of imperfections and bad habits I’m trying to overcome….I clearly have a long way to go on the road to maturity. But hopefully my writing gives a little indication of my hope to grow and mature; because at the core of my heart is a desire to talk about the things that matter most; to discuss the things that aren’t getting discussed or aren’t being talked about enough.

Did I stand up resolutely and leave the table when the old guy’s started sharing their prostitute stories? No….I’m not going to lie and pretend I’m some kind of saint……but I can at least admit that some things make me uncomfortable and I hope that I continue maturing a little bit further in my own spiritual and intellectual growth.

I need another coffee now,


Categories: Culture & Society

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100 replies

  1. Excellent writing, profound thoughts. Your blog is becoming unmissable. Keep it up. Enjoy your coffee.

  2. Gross. Gak! I agree with you completely.

  3. None of us can control every creepy thought that comes into our heads. We do have a choice of what we subject other people to. Those men doing that to you was wrong. You voiced your concern and they ignored it. Many times I would have wished I had, had the courage to walk away. I was abused as a child and the fear of standing up to authority is still with me. We teach others how to treat us. Those men are doing more than fantasizing. They are trying to perpetuate a culture that allows women to be objectified. It is always just one step from taboo to abuse. I say practice walking away. Let them know clearly their sickness is not yours.

    • One of the most uncomfortable things being a guy is sitting around a bunch of other guys who ogle the women who walk by and who say what they ‘wish’ they could ‘do to/with her’….it’s a pretty ugly face of male sexuality in our culture….

    • Some of the roughest guys I ever knew were all talk and no bite
      a couple of the smoothies I wouldn’t allow in the same room with my daughter . . . thing is you never know a person until you have been through the fire with them. . . .

      I don’t know . . . during the sixties sex, drugs, rock and roll was in your face and wide open . . . today I sense a politically correct (everything) . . . but has the basic person changed much? I doubt it . . . it’s all hidden now by self righteousness and pretty words. . . .

      Now don’t take this as being directed towards you personally! . . . I enjoy your blog for bringing up a lot of these issues.

    • The problem with the “all talk” rough guys is that the smoothies are listening to them. If that kind of talk surrounds you all the time without consequences, it’ll make creepiness sound socially acceptable.

      Not to mention that a young woman overhearing “rough talk” (1) is still being exposed to awful attitudes that influence her self-image, (2) has no way of knowing that these guys don’t “really” bite.

    • I disagree with it being hidden. If anything, it’s more in the open than it was back then. Society has succumbed, and sex, drugs and rock & roll are mainstream. Pot is being legalized in some states, Black Sabbath and Led Zeppelin songs on car commercials, and you’ll see as much nudity on a network television program as you once did in a rated R movie.

    • I think the issue is contextually; in movies, film, media….I agree that the things you mentioned are definitively out in the open….

      But I think I would agree with JJ’s thoughts in the context of the workplace and corporate America…..because I see business associates (men) making sexist statements behind the backs of others (females)…..

    • Today’s crap is the fruit from the plants that we planted in the 60’s.
      Culture shock was the name of the game . . . we went in a few short years from saluting the flag to wearing it as head band . . . from virginity to mass fing parties . . . from a six pack to shooting smack . . . cities burned . . . people died and soldiers cried . . . It was a great and exciting time to be alive . . . today is ho hum compared to the 60’s. Now the skirt has been lifted and it is in all our faces to the point (after Miley) that we just need a break from all the debauchery . . .

  4. They give us geezers a bad rap.
    As for the wider society, you’ve got the prognosis down, unfortunately.
    Restoring the health is another matter.

    • I probably should of said that not all of my older male friends do that……I have some genuinely sincere, nice, and good older friends in my life and I count them as people I look up to 🙂

    • And I probably should have said I’m looking forward to a contradance tomorrow night when I’ll be dancing with a number of lovelies of all ages. Beats gawking, we’ll all be laughing, I’ll feel 18 again (not that I did any of this back then), and maybe I’ll be dealing with the sore muscles the next morning.
      I’m thinking of an older dancer, now deceased, who taught me that geezer need not be pejorative but, well, something more playful, self-effacing, and honest. And he was quite popular as a dance partner.

    • Ha ha best wishes….hope u have a great time 🙂

    • yes I know . . . that’s why I think it sucks for any man (not just old guys) to talk about sex, especially the graphic stuff . . .

  5. I praise God for your mighty blog full of healthy reads & respect :}

  6. I’m not surprised you felt uncomfortable – prostitution is a very large and complex subject. Male prostitution, female prostitution, trafficked women, pimps, drug dependency, organised crime, are just a few of the issues this brings up. Criminalising the prostitutes but not those who seek their services is another area to be considered.

    For 25 years I was a Magistrate in central London, and this area of sleazy criminality has been a problem there (as in other cities) for several hundred years. In that time various methods have been tried in attempts to eliminate the problem, or at least to control it – to no avail.
    As a woman, wife and mother I loathe the idea of women (in particular) selling their sexual services…but in court I dealt with two different cases (amongst others) where young men who had been born severely disabled had desparately wanted to have the universal human experience of sexual congress, and the only way they could get it was with a prostitute, and then someone called the cops. Did I consider what they were doing was wrong – no, I did not, though I knew it was illegal. In a weird way I was glad that the women who accommodated them were kind and understanding, and I certainly did not think that what they and those women did would lead to the collapse of Western Civilization as we know it.
    It is a very thorny issue and I still grapple with my views on it.
    Thanks for raising this topic – many people shy away from it.

    • I share many of your thoughts… bothers me that the women here in America who are prostitutes risk going to jail…’s not that I would ever endorse prostitution; but to throw a woman in jail for it seems like a misguided effort to help because I don’t think they are helped by being arrested……sadly, the U.S. is obsessed with throwing all sorts of people in jail who probably shouldn’t be there

    • I’m disappointed in the tendency in the U.S. to throw the book at the (often female) prostitutes, but let their customers off with, if anything, a slap on the wrist. Not that I think prostitution is a good thing – it’s not. But it’s less about criminality and more linked to poverty and abuse.

    • M.B. totally agree with you. Putting a woman in jail because of prostitution doesn’t help her….but rather; dealing with the poverty, abuse, or whatever problems she is suffering from is what will help her.

  7. A really profound blog post, couldn’t resist to share some thoughts.

    – How come we still have ugly/foul mouths (I’m including wtf. etc) as we grow older? Whatever happened to growing old gracefully and elegantly?, clearly it’s not automatic and needs striving in virtue – which sounds hopelessly old fashioned, even quaint.
    – Our culture values and rewards success, only when breaking/challenging taboo, as examples given sadly show.
    – Our culture doesn’t value wisdom, or growing older.

    And the last point to me is the most profound things. Does ‘growing old in wisdom’ require a culture or an environment to happen or is it intrinsic to growing up?

    This post suggests not, and personal experience attests the same. But then this leads to a further and more difficult question; how do we then create such a culture where growing in wisdom is encouraged, valued, and nurtured? More specifically how can our faith communities go about creating such a culture within our communities?, especially since wider society – forgive my pessimism – even defeatism – here, is unlikely to change its way.

    • Dude, your comments are awesome and I definitley don’t know the answers…….I do know that there have been times in past history where older people were cherished for their wisdom and intellect but our current era is not practicing this. I also know that there were times in the past where younger people really respected older people but by and large this doesnt happen in our day: perhaps the older generation hasn’t done a good job in earning the respect of younger people, or perhaps younger people are just to damn disrespectful..or maybe it’s a combination of the two……..

    • Food for thought. Thanks again.

    • Food for thought – thanks.

    • Part of our success as a species from an evolutionary point of view is our long life. The fact that we can have several generations of people alive at the same time allowed for the passing down of knowledge through the oral tradition, before written language. This is most of our human history. In some ways it makes sense that since knowledge is so readily available now that we have come to devalue what the old has to offer, but I think that people forget the unique perspective that someone has who has lived over a long period of time. There are trends and experiences that are simply not possible to have in the short term, that can only be appreciated and understood in the long term. That instant gratification feeling is something we are spoiled now because many more things are available instantly than ever before. I think though we would be wise to remember that the old still have something to offer. If science is write and the life span of humans goes up by 50 to 100 years in the next 100 years…I actually think it would be so neat to talk to someone that old as a young person and get the perspective of someone who has lived 200 years. A friend of mine has that “book of questions” that you are supposed to read out at social gatherings to initiate instant discussions. One of the questions was, if you could live 2000 years would you? Most people said no, because of the pain of losing loved ones, but when I think about seeing 2000 years of human history from Jesus until now…I’m like holy crap…I’d be the wises person ever…and well even if I wasn’t just to see all that change…experience it…it about blows my mind. lol

    • National Public Radio uncovered some lost recordings from the early 1900’s in which African American men who lived as slaves prior to the civil war were talking about their experiences living as slaves down south……it was chilling to hear the actual voices of those men talk about their lives because they were firsthand accounts……I think at the time of the recordings the men were already in their 80’s… I totally get what your saying

  8. What is right or wrong isn’t my place to say, but I will tell you this. I am over 60 and fantasies about young hookers and random pretty girls is not what I want to think about. Social change and inner change come about by examples. Live life as you would like it to be — Live life as if ().
    Thanks for writing your observations.
    ~ Eric

    • Great comments: I walk a fine line in discussing this kind of subject because I definitley don’t want to say that merely talking about such things are “morally” wrong, and I definitley think there are times when a four letter word might be appropriate …..but it seems like our culture is tilted to the extremes on subjects like this

    • I choose to reply directly to what you wrote earlier. This reply is for me a related further topic.

  9. Ken, one of the things I like so much about your posts are their reality. I appreciate it, and I value it.

    I totally understand your discomfort in that situation–but, when I am faced with those that bring similar reaction from me, I know that I have to “do” something to tell those around me, and remind myself, that, while I can’t control their actions, that I can most certainly make a statement about my own beliefs (making a playful statement and then going to the restroom would do that very thing).

    Now, this comes with all of the junk that I also run into, such as–standing up for my beliefs and sticking out as a result. It takes guts. But you have plenty of those.

    Something that also comforts me, is that, no matter what our flaws or our blatant outright sins, we are human–made and loved by God–as we are–not able to be made perfect through ourselves, but through Christ, which he did for us by dying on the cross for those sins.

    The sexual responses of our bodies were created by God–perfect in every way. How our bodies respond to certain situations is not sinful–how we use them can be.

    I smile at your postings, sometimes, because, not too long ago, my blogs were mostly vents–necessary for me to live, at that point. I pray that you find some peace among all of the rubble–there is always hope.

    Actually, if you wish, I have something I would like you to read–of my own making–contact me if you would like a little humor and a little of my own insight.

    Blessings to you!

    • Because I used to be such a “Christian a@$ hole” when I was younger and I used to be way to obsessed with judging others….I tend to keep my mouth shut a little bit too often these days……but I agree with what your saying….

      Your more than welcome to email it to me at I always have time to read something humorous 🙂

  10. maturity is sometimes just understanding how immature you really are . . .

    and when it comes to sex? I’m 71 and in all those years hanging out with guys I’ve learned that men, no matter the age, are insanely immature when it comes to a pretty woman.

    Prostitution? Take little Johnnie away from mommy and send him to Asia in the 60’s and he will come home with a zillion stories. Maturity tells me to keep those stories to myself . . . when I hear old guys talking that stuff I just tell them to shut the f up . . . what happened there stays there IMO.

  11. This is such a great post. We are all “works in progress.” It is only when we stop working on our flaws and striving to improve that we fail.

  12. You called them out on it. That’s more than most people would do with their friends. Don’t ever think it’s a small thing.

  13. Okay I was surprised to see another post about prostitutes. and thank you for the smile.
    i think when blogging we choose a way to write and stick to it. cursing isn’t needed there are other ways to make a point you do not like it. So the way you write says a lot about maturing or wanting to mature. As for getting old, well I think we still like to go back to the things that are taboo from our young age just to have a sense of young again. Fun times and rue enough we never to old to fantasize. Maybe we should do it more in silence.
    As for those hell houses i think they are doing the opposite. would love to see one. According to many we Dutch would fit right in 😀

    • The Hell Houses here in the U.S. are VERY controversial….and Im not fond of them at all; if they were merely about doing some fun, maybe I’d have a different kind of opinion, but they are rather extreme and seem to take condemning others to a whole new level….

      Ya know, I live in a urban community so there are prostitutes on the side of the road in a number of places I work throughout the week…..the subject comes up at coffee quite a bit simply because the prostitutes are fairly visible

  14. 😉 Your desire to mature is admirable! Language doesn’t clean itself up, it takes an act of deliberation, take it from a girl who used to cuss and swear in her 20’s (and can still when sufficiently provoked).

    Those old guys are creeps, and that’s what they are, period. Hope what remains of their cojones wilts off. Absolutely sick to do that to the young girl (who in all probability heard them).

  15. Age doesn’t always define maturity. Some people will grow old, but never grow up.
    It use to make me sick some old man close to 80 yr at this assisting living home chassing woman and talking dirty. Now i just ignore the show and laugh.
    Have another coffee, you deserved 😊

  16. This is only my 3rd read of your blog. I have concluded that you visit too many cafes. Yes, I am being tongue in cheek. So, regarding this post. Background, background, background and generation. I suspect that might be the answer to the 3 mens conversations (I did not say gentlemen for a reason). Then re your following words:

    —-) Kim Kardashian and Paris Hilton are famous for their sex tapes

    —-) Hugh Hefner is famous for being a senior that sleeps with young women

    —-) Howard Stern is the most wealthy radio personality in America and he’s not known for his intellect; but rather his dirty sense of humor

    1) Know the names but none of the lives, nor, work, nor antics. Thankfully.
    2) Still?
    3) Thank God I have never heard this slug.

    Looking forward to tomorrow.

  17. Hi there Kenneth, I haven’t commented in a while but you got me today… I’m no expert but I have spent a lot of time working and volunteering in the geriatric field and from my own observations of myself that as we age we lose that filter between our thoughts and our mouths… in youth that filter prevents us from saying certain things we may think because they are inappropriate, but as we age we stop caring as much what others might think… I think in our declining years our true nature comes out… just my opinion… now I gotta finish my own coffee and get cracking…

    • TJ,

      I’m totally with you on the “filter”…. In psychology of aging my professor talked extensively about that very phenomena and how it is in many ways a natural component of getting older…

  18. There is energizing thinking that you can apply that will allow you to move yourself in the areas towards what you want — first, remember, giving is receiving — give what you want to receive what you want. Feel compassion for others not contempt. Allow yourself to make clear choices for what is necessary — for you; therefore enjoyment at what this is that you do.
    As I see this, the men are making choices that they prefer. Their language and their excitement ’causes you concern’ about yourself as this is happening. You write: “but I hope that as I get older I mature away from my juvenile-male-thoughts. Is that too much to ask of myself?” The judgment isn’t ours to make — the living life as if () of what we desire is ours to do. So, you see something that you don’t want. Don’t fight it — if we resist it persists. Instead, define what you want and do so as clearly with only positive affirmative language as you are able. Being a writer is advantageous for you for creating by writing – At YouTube, see “focus wheel Abraham Hicks” where you will get a list of trainings on how to use one to clarify and focus on what you desire.
    As a Christian, I look carefully at what I do, not to condemn any others, but so I can work out my living as a successful Christian. I want happiness and loving, caring, compassionate others in my life. Its up to me to follow the directions. Jesus gave the directions. When the bible stories get quoted, often the stories include the problem more so than the solution in the telling. The solution is what is necessary to move myself from a mindless man of natural instincts towards a what I desire as becoming a consciously compassionate and empathic Christian.
    I know I gave up working on being a judging person because not judging but instead being love as best I can is rewarding. I still am human. Our human instincts are real. These instincts are aroused by needs – its physiological. Sex is one of our lower needs. It only requires that we have organs that function somewhat for the instinct to arouse us. Denying then certain situations is a loser battle. Instead, it is necessary to desire what is good and right. Desire this with all of my heart and hardly do I find myself being aroused in a manner that is not what I want because that situation is not attractive to me and therefore I do not feel it calling me – arousing my interests and passions. By investing as much passion in what I want as I may manage, I am called towards what I consciously want—rarely seeing anything that otherwise arouses me.
    Clearly, Jesus commands us to love others as we love ourselves. This is clear as possible I think from In Matthew 22:37-40 Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”
    In the Habakkuk 2:4 prophecy of Jesus coming into Jerusalem as King, we read: “See, the enemy is puffed up; his desires are not upright—but the righteous person will live by his faithfulness.”
    John 14:1-4 (Jesus is speaking)
    “Do not let your hearts be troubled. Trust in God; trust also in me. In my Father’s house are many rooms; if it were not so, I would have told you. I am going there to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am. You know the way to the place where I am going.”
    ~ Eric

  19. From the title I thought this was gonna be about congressmen and senators.

  20. I am not surprised at the conversation. Conversations happen and they go where they will. What I am surprised with is that you have stories about people, strangers, who sit down at your table. That has happened to me once, and he was at his own table and we ended up facing one another and he began speaking, and shared far more with me than he wanted to, or realized until the end. Stories of moonshine days and gangsters and WWII, and things he did and people he met. Once, but it seems people seek you out, and sit with you, regularly. That is what astounds me.
    What interesting stories you must have, and the witness to that are some of these posts, like this one.
    So what if they talk about prostitution, you have gotten a glimpse into something deeply personal, slipped past the barriers most of us put up. It is often messy down there, but oh so interesting, and very real.

  21. A current example could be Miley Cyrus…she did the twerking thing with Robin Thicke (who has probably the biggest song of the year and an accompanying video with topless women. The song, btw, is misogynistic and if you watch the uncensored version you can truly grasp how pathetically insecure this guy is). and then the almost porno “wrecking ball” video amd she’s more popular than ever…no such thing as bad press in entertainment…

    • I’ve seen both the videos (the uncensored one as well) and your word “misogynist” is spot on….nudity doesn’t bother me, especially in relation to art, but Thicke’s video totally disrespects women as he only uses them as objects/props of sexual gratification….there isn’t anything ‘beautiful’ about the nudity in the video; it’s really sad 😦

  22. There’s nothing wrong with enjoying the view. But the talk about prostitutes gives me pause. These fellows need a little education about the realities of sex trafficking. Maybe then they would not be so proud of their exploits. Exploitations is more like it…

  23. Unfortunately, what you experienced is a generational gap that told those men that their masculinity is tied up in the ability to have (sexually) younger women. The model of the antlered elk and a “harem” of cows, or the hoary lion with a “pride” of females is the model of their “nature”.

    In a way, it is a sad obverse of the feminine beauty trap: a woman is only feminine and desired when young looking and when she can attract the eye of any man.

    Both distortions more or less subtract all other substantive bits of being human and reduce both genders to sexuality alone. I’ve found for older men who have retired from work, it is even more accentuated — they must cling to this last redoubt of masculinity, you see? I find it a very sad and pathetic reduction of human life.

    I admit, in my 20’s I had rarely thought about this peculiar societal issue until I read a book by M.A. Foster called “The Gameplayers of Zan” —it was a sci-fi dealing with a genetically enhanced humanity, a variance from ordinary norms built to have a very low birth-rate; so sexual potency and fertility were biologically limited and ENDED at a certain age. This would be the nightmare of your conversants, eh, lol? But among the “ler” as these people were called, it meant freedom to discover at their leisure, many other aspects of life that had formerly been eaten up in sexual pursuit, parenthood, work.

    Would that we ordinary humans could view aging in that manner rather than fixating upon youthful romps in the hay.

  24. I find it very disturbing when an older man looks at a young girl in a sexual way. I sure wouldn’t be leaving my daughter (if I had one) alone with a man like that. That’s not to say that every man who makes eyes at a young girl will do something that he should not, but I wouldn’t risk it. I would hope that as a man ages that he would outgrow that adolescent behavior and learn to respect females for who they are, rather than what they can provide.

    • Maybe I’m guilty of ‘agism’ here but I think that is what annoyed me the most; it’s one thing if a 18 year old dude ‘gets the hots’ for an 18 year young woman that walks by…..but two of the guys I was sitting with were in their 80’s and the othe two were in their 70’s!

  25. You are on to something when it comes to wisdom. We need to stop saying “live and learn” and start saying “learn and live.” Wisdom begins with a realization that there are absolutes: things that can be known and are worth knowing. From there it moves on to incorporating those absolutes into your thoughts and actions. I’d say your blogs are full of wisdom.

  26. Hey Culture monk, I like your transparency here, and just want to note that there is a big difference between “bad habits” and a spirit of lust – and sexual struggles are huge for men and women – and not sure if you read the book “Every Man’s battle” but it is a potent book about how some of the things soaked up with the eyes – or lightly noted in conversation can be polluting and can rob men from a sense of sexual integrity. And in my opinion, I think you should have listened to your discomfort and not partakes in such unwholesome talk – for many reasons. again, I like how you can “go there” with various topics and issues – but sadly – growing up and maturing does not appease lust struggles – aging does not lead to purity – only the power of God can break those strongholds – which sadly consume men more than women – and even as those old dudes went down memory lane – it only fueled other things lurking int he heart – and I think next time you should use that opportunity to plant Godly thoughts int hose men – instead of receiving the dirty mental STAINS they left for you that day.

    • I’ve talked with Stephen Arteburn before and I hav mixed feelings about his book; some of the things he says I agree with….other things not so much. My academic background is psychology and counseling so I have some fairly extensive thoughts on that particular book he wrote because I’ve seen some men read it who were helped by it and other men who have had a negative experience from reading it…..ultimately, when it comes to psychological books (such as ‘Every Man’s Battle’) I fear that they are too often written with a “one size fits all ” mentality….but that different people need to be approached with different strategies…..

      Similar to raising children; some strategies of child rearing that work with one child, dont necessarily work with every child

    • Yea, I agree with you on how the “one size fits all” does NOT really cut it – and my hubby and I also both feel the same about Arteburn’s book – where we do not agree with A LOT of it as well – and I hope I did not sound like I was doing a big plug for his book – but what I like about the book is that is a good place for start for men who do not even know how to “think” about the idea of unhealthy lust or un-wholesome thoughts about sex – and so the book at least “goes there”

      and I like how it addresses a topic that most Christians do not want to openly talk about – like soft porn – and just the way men tend to visually lust and how they CAN choose to control what they soak up with their eyes (and the idea of bouncing has been helpful to many guys we know) – and so the book has value for that. But I agree that it has many shortcomings.

      Lastly, great point about the uniqueness of child rearing too – indeed there are universal things that apply to us all of as humans – like all kids need love, respect, boundaries, etc. – but then different children will have different needs for power, adventure, finding their identity, etc. – so true – so true –

    • No, it didn’t sound like u were plugging it 🙂 sometimes I write my comments too quickly as I’m trying to get through as much as I can and I can end up conveying something that I’m not meaning to convey….

      And your last paragraph makes me think we are totally on the same page 🙂 ….for me, while I still value so many of the evangelical authors I grew up reading and listening too….I feel like a lot of them simply don’t take into account how differently everyone is and like Arteburn; they simplify too much in their philosophies and present too many cookie cutter solutions.

      I just read one of the best articles of my life about sex within marriage and the failure that many evangelicals make in addressing the subject, the author was getting at exactly where I’m coming from; that sex in marriage is a little more complex and each couple has their own unique set of circumstances that need to be worked through….and the cookie cutter sayings about sex can end up frustrating married couples more then they help

  27. Face it, men are pigs! Really though, men are just as susceptible to swallowing what the culture tells them they should look and act like as women are. Culture tells women they are supposed to be nothing more than sexual objects and it tells men they are supposed to be nothing more than sex pigs. When we let culture define who we are, things like this are the result.

    • Well not all men are pigs…at least I sure hope not.

      and I agree; our culture definitely tells women in many ways to think of themselves as sex objects and this is very discouraging.

  28. Good read! Inspiring to know someone who stands up for what he believes is right!

  29. I think you should have gone for a shot of expresso after that conversation. LOL, I have a feeling getting a seat near y’alls table that day would have been prime positioning. A front row seat for watching people and their uncomfortable shifting issues….

    How do you take your coffee? Black, for me. Have a great night.

    • lol this may make me sound like a wimp but the only time I drink espresso is if I order a latte and that is only once in a great while…..

      and yes…I ONLY drink my coffee black; no cream…..

  30. oh goodness!! That is all I can literally say right now ,OH GOODNESS(rolling my eyes)

  31. It can certainly be depressing when you look at what our culture celebrates. Even more than what gets people famous (as silly as those things are), it is disgusting how we love watching those figures collapse into addiction and personal struggle.

  32. I think I would be uncomfortable too, but perhaps for a different reason. Thinking about their old bodies with a young pretty girl….especially when I would be much younger and more appropriate. lol

    I don’t think you sound like a prude at all, but I do think our society here in the U.S. is a bit repressed sexually still. This may sound like somewhat of a paradox when you look at pop culture, but I think there is a certain level of immaturity to the way sex is portrayed right now. We still have plenty of kids growing up not learning about sex, parents fighting school boards to teach abstinence education, prostitution puts women in jail and makes their life less safe, the naked body even in the context of non-sexual scenes is censored on television, and there’s plenty of slut shaming for a girl who wants to explore her sexuality. In my opinion, pop culture sort of just slaps you in the face with sexuality, treating it like it’s something to rebel with, something to make a bold statement with, something to fight crusty old conservatives with. It makes it feel like an opinion or a point of view. The truth is that sex is just part of who we are. It is one of our primary psychological drives. It dominates us psychologically in one way or another. Next to eating it is the most important way in which we survive, and if it is usually a choice between awesome sex and a bite to eat, we’ll usually choose the sex. We all fantasize about it, we all have fetishes. It starts at puberty and ends for different people at different ages. We have all sorts of research on the benefits of sex to our emotional, mental, and physical well being. We know what makes it more pleasurable, less pleasurable, and disorders. It ranges from the deepest physical expression of our feelings of love for another person, to hot steamy sex in the parking lot outside of a bar.

    And there it is. Remove the shock value and perhaps we can be more mature about it at all ages. A conversation about prostitutes in your youth is tempered about how lucky they go that they didn’t get an STD, or an admission that while they still find young girls extremely attractive it’s no longer a game they can play, but thank goodness the imagination is a place they can still call their own. 🙂

    Maybe that’s too simple an answer. I don’t think prostitution is going away through fighting against prostitution or even deeming it immoral. I think society makes the greatest positive changes when we care about each other. There is certainly a more fulfilling life than prostitution, but it means better education for women. Treating women as equals and continuing to fight for gender equality. I think that if more women had more options for their future, prostitution would not be their first choice. And if it was we could still make sure that they had a way to get out of that life by making sure that had health care and protection from rape and physical abuse. Showing kindness and understanding even if we thought they had made a mistake with their life choice, instead of scorn and condemnation for being as flawed as the rest of us.

    • ” but I do think our society here in the U.S. is a bit repressed sexually still. This may sound like somewhat of a paradox when you look at pop culture, but I think there is a certain level of immaturity to the way sex is portrayed right now. ”

      I agree totally. I wrote a number of essays about this topic when I was in college; on the way that American society is still scared of sex/nudity/sexuality…yet sex is everywhere we go.

      I like the word you use ‘paradox’ because it is the best way to sum up the strange dichotomy surrounding the odd way American culture views sex. Its sad, because in American culture ‘violence’ in film is in many ways more accepted than nudity…and that seems really f**ked up;

      —-) Parents are more likely to let their young children watch extremely violent movies than they are when it comes to a movie where there’s even the smallest hint of nudity……

      —-) In many parts of America it is against the law for women to breastfeed in public….but it is okay for people to walk around with guns on their hips….

      bizarre contradictions to say the least

    • Excellent points…the violence vs. sex dichotomy is indeed quite odd. Obviously violence is out there too, but I feel like we are skewed into thinking that violence is more prevalent than it actually is, and sex is somehow less prevalent than it really is. As a result we have a public that is convinced strangers will come into their house and shoot them and that terrorists can bomb their city at any moment. Those things are much less likely than being bullied at school for your sexual preferences or sexual practices, teenage pregnancy, sexually transmitted diseases, etc. Bizarre is right.

  33. They say its alot easier to come up with a dirty joke than a clean one. Like you, I would have been uncomfortable in that conversation. Not that I’m a saint or a prude, but simply desire to shine my light of who I represent in Christ. His ambassador.

  34. The worst part is that they see a young girl and automatically think of sex. Women are so degraded in men’s minds. Thanks for sharing.

    • “The worst part is that they see a young girl and automatically think of sex. Women are so degraded in men’s minds”

      100% AGREE! That is what annoys me so much!

  35. Hello Culture monk…. I don’t normally do this award thing but wanted to nominate you for ‘The Sunshine Award’…. because your blog posts are always so thought provoking and intelligent – cheers me up on a rainy day. If you want to accept it then just go to my blog and follow the questions…. if not, just take this as a nod of appreciation 😉

  36. I have a feeling that most religious figures, Jesus included, wouldn’t care about the media or being famous. A song I used to sing in mass as a kid said “they’ll know we are Christians by out love.” That seems to be a better path than sensationalism, but maybe I’m a minority.

  37. Unfortunately, what you encountered with older gents seems to be the norm anymore. I tried dating a few years after I lost my husband (it always sounds like I’ve misplaced him when I say that), but the men I ran into largely are like the fellows you describe. I prefer the company of my dog to the sleaze going around these days.

    My brother would probably take the head off of someone who talked like that about his daughters or granddaughters – and for that matter, so would I. I guess some of us older folks learned some respect or at least how not to appear tacky – but tacky, rude, and crude seem to be “in” these days.

    There is a reason Collin Raye is so involved in child protection issues and penned the song, “I Think About You” in 1995. I respect the heck out of him as an entertainer for his concern for the children of the world and particularly how girls and women are treated.

    By the way, I do note that women lawyers tend to not be into feminine dress/makeup, etc. When I go to court most of the other women attorneys I know tend to de-emphasize the feminine. So perhaps the stereotype of the Barbie female will eventually fade – one can only hope.

    Enjoying your columns. 🙂

    • to be fair I do meet some really nice older ‘gentlemen’ but I can’t really say if ‘gentlemen’ are exceptions because it seems like some weeks i’ll meet a lot of what you refer to as ‘sleaze’ and other weeks I meet nothing but really cool dudes…..

    • I do know some nice older gentlemen – my brother is one (he’s73) and he’d never act like that. He’s been married going on 50 years, his wife is still his priority (they’re more in love now than ever) and he is not – nor has he ever been – given to sleaze.

      That being said, our society is in a sleazy phase. This too shall pass (I hope). As a 60-something I miss the more respectful, formal era I grew up in out in Idaho. But those days are long gone.

  38. hahaha kenneth … you got that coffee on, lol, the word is really has you put it, …..really ??? lol people get judged on the way they dress in 2013 do they? haha cannot wait for my children to grow up, that’s all i’m saying blimy if a women gets judged on the way she dresses i’m steadylaughing its like saying a man who walks around the street with no top on in the summer in front of my children is what? i don’t walk up to that man and ask him if he will kindly put his top on has my children are asking questions like why is it ok for a man to walk around with no to[p on but not them see children see themselves has a man because they little not grown up yet! thankfully i have explained the whole man and women thing to them today but i don’t say anything has a female so hey REaalllly? coffee this side and chokkie biscuits going down a treat, have a lovely weekend 🙂

  39. It’s true. Even the older men, the ones who were supposed to be respectful are getting worse. I had an older gentleman I trusted, who I considered a friend – he had been my real estate agent – and the person I went to when I had questions about legal matters that didn’t quite reach the level of requiring an attorney. He was slowly getting weirder, then one night he got a little drunk, apparently, and told me how he wanted to come to my house and rape me. This is what older men and a whole lot of younger men are like these days. I can remember a time when it wasn’t quite so bad. But, I’ve been the lady in the coffee shop and it’s pretty scary. I don’t understand why men feel the need to prostitute women. I, also, wonder how anything gets done in this world with men and their throbbing members running everything, everywhere you go.

    I just quit leaving the house. If I could make a little more money, I’d hire someone to do my grocery shopping because that’s the only time I see men anymore and about half the time, they are completely rude – making comments they have no business making, throwing things at me at the checkout counter. I think the whole world has pretty much gone nuts!

  40. I have a few thoughts on this piece.

    1. that you recognize your immature thoughts and actions is a great step to becoming more mature.

    2. it seems to me that culture /society, especially when the gentlemen were “in their glory days”, promotes that when men get together they be “manly men” and start one-uping each other. and the most “manly-man” thing to do is talk about how many women you’ve had, thus – the conversation got out of hand.

    3. it also seems that since the men knew each other for a while, as you said “they were old friends”, their little sub-culture was used to talking about that type of thing – maybe they couldn’t think of anything else to talk about – when they got around each other so they just reflexively went back to it.

    4. there are many great older, wiser, more educated people that do great things. unfortunately, the media that we rely on for our societal reality only focuses on the immature stupidity and attention seeking actions of the spotlight seekers. haven’t you noticed throughout the years that once even the spotlight seekers, i.e. 80’s Madonna, grow up and gain maturity and insight they are no longer in the spotlight any more – Madonna now, even her 2000’s music videos are more mature in look and actions.

    5. a second step in gaining maturity is to speak up in situations where young women are being objectified and it makes you uncomfortable.

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